WRKO>Audio & Video on Demand>>Paul Toner, President of Mass. Teachers Association, talks public education.

Paul Toner, President of Mass. Teachers Association, talks public education.

Jun 10, 2011|

Tom And Todd have a delightful conversation with Mr. Toner. Why are charter schools out performing public ones? Listen to the answer, or the spin.

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

Good morning and welcome back to the -- a judge -- Theres day right now whole lack cloudy rainy thunderstorms move through hot hazy humid for the most most of the day. Then another line of thunderstorms coming through that's because like we had a hundred I'm happy and he has his hot PG EU I get out more about their fault you little. Yeah oh like like a Steve about that looks like Althea -- daughters here in the studio with us he is the president to the mass teaches association's summit view. May have heard Paul toner on the radio about in terms of an interview with Tom and -- or anything else but. MTA is running ads about pay parents out the be aware that make -- -- -- -- -- child about school. We want to work with you and your words to that affects a -- what I'm detecting and one of the things Todd and I talked about regularly. You know I'm detecting a little bit of the immediate change in tone or change -- message. Trying to alert parents that you know you can't just -- the ball to us in the classroom teachers -- classroom. You've got a role and responsibility to so how long have you been with MTA is the new the new head of it and he can't what do the dynamics -- try to bring to the. Sure well Levin president of and Jason slash July July 15 I was the vice president for four years before that and Iraq are Cambridge middle school social studies teacher. And actually this is an a new message this is something that the mass teachers association and the National Education Association which MJ as part of has -- up all on you know we we do believe that. The teacher would require that we want highly qualified teachers in the classroom and they are the number one factor in school. That help determine student achievement but there are many other factors about you know how students are gonna achieve and that's supported home. Supporting the community. And you know support from school administration as well but you know we we owned the responsibility what we do in the classroom but we also need support term. Community partners and parents outside of the classroom and community. Cut as parents looking for support it's probably no secret to you that'll a lot of Austin but just -- and I'll put myself until. Because sometimes a little suspicious of the motives of teaching unions and we say you know. It sometimes seems to be self serving some people might say all the time seems to be self -- -- the ads about homer but just. The -- union seem to be -- -- they resist China schools they resist them cast there always -- taxes than just sand kind of more more more. It -- student performance over the is just does not seem to have. Kind of have a parallel track with. More more more how would how do you respond when people like me to I'd say -- -- we don't think you guys are really and it for the kids with accurate for -- so. No we think student performances -- essential fact I don't know if you listeners noticed by. Massachusetts public school students are actually number one in the nation and compare favorably international if you treat Massachusetts has its own. Country aren't comparing it to European and in Asian countries. And in fact. The MTA in this new valuation framework has put front and center that we do believe. That -- -- traditional observation of teachers and indicators have professional development. In the classroom we also do believe that. Whether child is learning over the course of the error several years -- classroom should be part of the overall evaluation process we believe in multiple measures we want a comprehensive transparent evaluation process. And this is something that you know the big news about our valuation framework clash it was that. Yes the union said student performance. Just count -- and it and it could be part of the overall evaluation process and our members do agree with that and say that. But we wanna have a say in and developing that evaluation process and we don't want to be all about standardized test scores because we're fearful. That you know a kid has a bad day taking the MCAS you know my jobs on the line based on. You know that wants -- we want to be trends over time. We also wanted to that's how the impasse is set up doesn't well no I mean there's some people at nationwide actually are talking you know I've talked about you know your MCAS scores. She's -- and cast act does not everybody has an aspect used in nice test scores and a snapshot. And using -- evaluation. Here in Massachusetts kids take impasse over and over again in three do so only recently has the department I developed the ability to be able to track. A child a student over the course of time before was comparing one class to the next class. So wasn't looking at. All teams are they can't follow you as Finneran from the third grade to the what about exactly the testing protocol if -- making progress. Are not that seems to me though -- to take a long long time to get an evaluation about my fifth grade teacher was he is she good trilogy is she terrible what they're terrible. By the time you figure out that they were terrible they've affected 200 more kids well and that's why we actually talked with its only 17% of the teachers in Massachusetts teach. And -- related subject. Remember it's only in -- high taxes and a half so what's your goal for how teachers be evaluated that. That we should still have opera professional our observations and we want highly trim and. Terms of the kid the student performance -- -- propose to because about my experience with the unions as you fight any real accountability all the way along. So if you're proposing that there be some quantitative measure of child performance that affects whether it's the teachers get to keep their jobs how second worked well. For instance -- a middle school social studies teacher there is no and cast for middle school social studies teachers are high school history teaches right now. You're gonna have to sit down and talk about. District quite assessments and of year exams if your high school maybe it's CAP exam -- final exam -- in the history class. You wanna talk about whether students are able to. You know write a ten page research paper you know -- whether they have the critical creative thinking skills they need to be successful in the world. -- -- the teachers -- valuations -- gonna work its part of it part of it really -- you're not I'm not hearing a a qualitative measure here what's the empirical measure that you want teachers judged by. I think the problem is it's not everything can be. -- reduced to a number. And having -- -- number. Method of evaluation that you may be looking. We deliver how many kids in the state of Massachusetts go to public schools not a million or so there's a million kids in the schools and you wanna keep educating without any. Cause and effect between the performance of the teacher and the performance and can. That's not at all what I said what I'm saying he says there's no way to measure. I did not say there's no way to measure but there right now we don't even have test for all the subject clearly have listened cast was math and English yet I don't know studies you don't have history don't have science -- if you -- out of gas and tenth grade you know. There is no -- after that that that's -- and kept out. So what's your proposal for how we measure. Our proposal is that it's superintendents and teachers and the district level school committees sit down and develop assessments at their local level. Now some of these things is this. A ten year planner twenty year plan how how would it take to implement. Actually -- 36 schools in the state of Massachusetts right now. That and several are districts that are gonna have to implement it beginning in September are now probably take a few months for them to sit down -- work these details out but they're gonna have to implement. A new evaluation plan this is all. Mars -- planet where we're gonna start seeing teachers getting fired because they suck at their jobs. Because you guys fight to make sure no matter how bad they are they get to teach their whole life. Actually that's not true that is absolutely untrue people use the word tenure here Massachusetts around the country. As if it's people have a bulletproof vest if they're not doing their job or they're not performing well that they can't be fired. Here Massachusetts we have professional teacher status the first three years of teaching in Massachusetts. A new teachers essentially an employee well yes they should be given feedback but in the first three years administration can actually let them -- After three years all they get is due process there is no. Block stepped guaranteed to hold the job for thirty years what it does demand is that superintendents and principals and whoever's doing the evaluation actually do the evaluation. This these stories about people being protected by the union. Because they're not doing that -- are untrue. There is a process and all we do is demand that people actually follow the process. That you would I want to jump in here a little bit so and in terms of dollar lousy teacher yeah. And you know the principal says this is just not work and -- will let you go. You want as of those side of the union -- on behalf of that members say. What have you documented about his or her. Poor performance correct in of this documentation. He's -- these -- surrender. Our isn't just I mean how. I don't wanna get -- all the nuts and bolts and find details of the process. It is I mean quite honestly depends the local level what's been going on if it's if an administrator has very well documented. That this person has not performed up to standards in May have actually offered assistance -- then you know quite honestly you know we will advised people not to go to arbitration over. You know we do sort percentage of teachers every year got fired I don't have that those kinds of records do any likely though last year -- any teachers kfar. In in Massachusetts absolutely 34 how many. 34 we have a 107000. Members don't about 70000 Merck K through twelve teachers -- And I think if we if you -- on this more than 34 teachers that have been like go body can you give me a ballpark going your guess would be well IIQ I don't have records regarding new teachers for instance but within the first three years teachers can be. What go up any idea how many more percentage in the first three years -- -- I'm not sure but I think it's pretty significantly. In the first three years they don't. Even get the due process and today they don't they just. It's gonna look comes in -- says this is not work and then you won't be brought back and actually exactly non reappointment is that can help us to understand the the relevance if any of the Wisconsin. War on collective bargaining we read about teachers unions out they're going to the map. We've read about all leniency in this as they're kind of I'm again and this is a disaster. What's your take as a union leader -- what Wisconsin was doing they say -- got the governor at least says. This was purely budget driven I don't have any hostility but I cannot have my hands tied anymore by unions. So in Wisconsin Indiana Ohio number of these places. You know in -- Wisconsin you have Governor -- saying that he's running for governor because he wants to solve fiscal crises. And then what he does he comes into office and immediately got its collective bargaining. I'll laws. The unions we act the Wisconsin education association had already agreed to make changes in the pension contribution health care contribution. And they offered up -- solutions to the fiscal crisis. But that's -- governor war -- he also wanted to eliminate. Dues deduction from paychecks he wanted to make it so that everybody has to take a revote every year. Whether they're going to be in the union and our. The -- or a number of other things that went well beyond any desired to -- knowledge of any fiscal issue and quite honestly what he was doing. Was trying to -- stories of unions in Wisconsin because they interpose they. Hello this is happening all over the country because the country's being crippled by the in our government sees it and everyone's dealing with a because of the crippling costs and inflated pay inflated pensions and an education the fact that we keep paying more. As the results get worse. That you brought up the state of Massachusetts were the results happen to be good but the governors just spent the -- his first term dismantling the standards that made education good in the state of Massachusetts. That's -- border national standards about. National standards are about Massachusetts elevating the rest of the country the only reason the DSC actually. Guard involved with the national standards move it was because they said we're not interest it unless you meet Massachusetts standards or better. And how does Massachusetts benefit from teaching the -- country how to do standards. I think we benefit as a nation because I don't think it's very good for us to have one set standards in Massachusetts and a different set of standards and Alabama we talk about governor global economy you to stark about Wal-Mart. And competing internationally I think we have to be focused on helping improve educational standards for all students in the united. -- Massachusetts. -- he focused on raising the rest of the country instead of having our -- region -- focus on Massachusetts but if we can help benefit other students and teachers. Around -- turning our standards over to an amalgam we hardly realized it was a we have we've just voted. To have the federal government designer standards -- in Massachusetts is actually leading the effort -- absolutely in Massachusetts will sit down with -- Mississippi. Is Mississippi the -- punters and I alto I don't know so we'll sit down with them and misses it goes that we can't meet these standards you've got to compromise their fifty states. You gotta try to hit. Towards the center even if -- and that he'll be even if you have got -- is an addict yeah I mean that's what you think is gonna -- and guess what it my prediction is proof. That it is lunacy to take the best standards in the country. And blow them up and turn them certainly prove if we hit if we could look into the future it's you know Todd was right there on June ninth. 2000 because we cannot allow because you'll look into the present and say there are no national stand examined design yet and we know that we have to in a collaborative effort. Get forty however many other states who Hillary did this to us we're so what the government can't go up so we can improve our standards what we start asking Mississippi and Alabama sheriff's standards. When the governor and Paul reveled with at the -- on at different times different ways today. Without interest and diluting Massachusetts standards in any way we continued we we want -- they obviously don't care about our standards they care about selling out to the unions because how much money do you give a how much money you guys give to Deval Patrick can it is we didn't collections. We did not give any money -- about Patrick we did run. Separates. Ad campaign -- and support our governor Patrick's election we aren't allowed to give money directly to a candidate. But to -- political action committees -- -- -- we are -- you do it you've just spent the money weren't an independent expenditure campaign we weren't allowed to talk to the so how much you spent we spent several million dollars several million dollars and we -- I was doing or how much of all spent to get reelected and -- attend 1512. -- he paid roughly half of his rise. To get reelected -- -- 50% donation towards we didn't pay a total any of his ride. Governor Patrick. Support. Supports public schools public education -- you -- -- support you guys he's partners with you guys and he just sold -- the state of Massachusetts -- -- the state education standards enemy but again messages have up to turn them over to federal -- -- gaga doesn't think he's -- he's -- governor for our five years I don't know the damage is -- as an early and for the. Past three sets of -- exam national assessment on educational progress the last three times in the past. Six years that they've measured. It's that the success of Massachusetts student. Massachusetts students have been number one. Actually but based on the standards -- -- -- you know what powers because I didn't got put into effect seventeen years ago so he runs for reelection on the great success those standards created -- -- spent four years dismantling them and now he's sharing them over to the families Hugo. Or to the border that is department of red and look at the standards. They have been not lowered they have not changed our weekend. Okay we got sick or break they'll take some phone calls -- honors here that we got a title the last few episodes this Minnesota or Massachusetts. Two states that perform well and yet very strong. Unions and Finland which is number one and that in the world and is a strong union -- contradiction no contradiction at all when you know the facts coming up more -- -- Todd WRK -- morning and welcome back to the common touch -- you know we have the on the audio stuff -- always been around -- the offer is stuff. Is entertaining. The two. And of course my cohost apartment Todd Feinberg. Each have -- In the Cambridge I would -- -- at the same level as Paul Paul spent eleven years teaching then ran the union and you had I had six weeks 36 days. So but your -- but you've both been in the classroom. It's -- made a couple of comments what we would do when you guys are having that nice little back and forth about. You know the the the lavish benefits health care pension lavish salaries. What is it means you might not have precise but -- -- give us a rough idea what -- the teachers got that yet you know when he issue comes out of college bright eyed bushy -- wanted to save the world. And and you know professionally over the years. You guys fight all the time I understand that's proud of the role of -- -- what is that what is what is a teacher and. Here in the Boston. Metro Boston area might stuck between save 38 and 45000 dollars with -- back with your bachelor's degree in teaching and the Greater Boston area. If you're out and we know western masters down in the southeast coast you're probably talking more like 35000 dollars for starting salary. Maybe even lasts and some of those areas. And then depending on you know right now the way salary schedules work it's based on your years of experience and amount of education a professional development yet. You may max out probably around 75000. Dollars -- at the end of your career and that's. And some of the -- districts and in her -- Boston may be higher than that different districts have to format the average teacher Massachusetts this year it's the Sunni lashes average teacher's salary. According to the GSE and that's combining everybody unit that is includes people have been in thirty area from from freshly you know that's thirty years is 68000. Dollars and -- Let's deal -- think that those those salaries to attract. The -- the famous for its -- is the best drives do we get the best and the brightest people to come into the classroom and if not. Why god is -- dearest and an additional kind of satisfaction. With which comes from. Teaching and I think most people who comes to teaching I know it was true my cases I grew up wanting to help people on somewhere and I -- sort of be a crop and and a lawyer not a firefighter etc. You know -- as -- a politician maybe someday you know being a state rep for something like that attempt to bring change is my heroes were Martin Luther king and JFK and people like act grown up as a kid. And you know for me was never about how much money I was gonna make it was about -- -- gonna help my community that's why I live in Cambridge night I wanted to teach in Cambridge Cambridge. Area but -- I'll feel as we lose a lot of good teachers because. What if they've hit frustrations in year two or 3 in -- -- am I doing this for for 45 grand a year I can go make ninety. But I could -- I think we should definitely be working to raise. The entry level salary -- teaches to attract more people to the profession because. You know if you got you know women and minorities have so many more options than they did you know 2030 years ago. I think that you know if you want to attract. More people to the education field and hold onto them especially in the early years coming right out of college we do need higher salaries and they mostly people who comets because. They are real desire to help the community they have a real desire. To give back to society. And some people willing to do that for a few years but then maybe it's time to -- -- a little. You realize the collision of that desire at a -- sellers -- -- I do argue it's -- how you're gonna get good math and science -- -- raised title office 75 sadly they are from 35 exact but he used the erotic collision course -- united politically dumb you can you kind of see the whole equation. During a collision course with property taxes into a state. No that's not the girl is a phony conversation. Because that was the reason the salaries are at the level ARRIS has. And what you need to do is say if there's a great math teacher out there and you want them math teacher pay that math teacher underground. And pay the mediocre. Teacher for something where they're dime a -- you pay that person thirty -- I guitarist of replied I actually -- and you and we are actually -- we're opposed to differentiating based on subject area now quite honestly most contracts. You know people if there's a high needs cereal like math or physics or quite honestly world languages and special -- Are some of the highest in the areas you know districts do usually have some flexibility to bring them in. Edit them but that's only want factory the other if you have a vibrant exciting teacher they should get bigger raises and that. The mundane ones who are through the -- -- -- that -- should have merit pay but I but he's talking about now we're we're opposed to talking about having educational work the way the world works where do well he and incentives to. -- what you define as merit pay -- you know target -- are talking about quantifying things so how do you quantify exuberance and energy and enthusiasm okay interests -- you know paid to test scores one wise more so well so that's why you think that everything has to work space all. I think you want you need to be rational we have multiplied the amount of dollars that we spend on education over the past few decades. And the results are not going up commensurate with that increase in spending so clearly the dollars aren't the issue. In terms of the way you're replying the dollars currently so we got to look at the way you're applying the dollars and saying it's a failure. Cambridge for example. Spends more money I would imagine that almost and -- district and country 24000. Dollars per kid 101000 dollars above. What we spend state wide our -- over. And they they do a lousy job educating. -- that's that's actually not true both of my children Cambridge public schools and I will not be putting my -- a white families go to better schools in Cambridge is no question and there are actually send my child to the neighborhood school that I grew -- man and went to an -- if you look at welfare if you look at the average people immigrants just -- -- family talk -- -- -- now when he -- you make excellent is several charges and he doesn't even -- lights are on our -- -- giant. That'll let -- -- families and has knowledge of rockets of the good schools everyone knows the good schools are knows about that. Only I bring my child to the neighborhood school in my neighborhood that used to be the FitzGerald schools now the PB school. And I send my child there because I believe as a parent should be involved in my child's education in in the school. I have faith in the teachers in the leadership and that's cool. It's a very diverse school we have kids from housing projects chemistry we have kids from. Middle income and upper income -- it's a true cross section of the community Cambridge it is not some select school where only wealthier the well educated ago. Well about most people choose to put their kids in the better schools. I understand politically maybe you feel a need to sacrifice your kids or something. I don't sacrifice my child whatsoever nobody should feel them Phil -- I send my kids to school I went to when I grew up -- and I feel and -- discuss long let's say yes oh and by the way you know wanna talk MCAS scores that doing just fine. Look I'm glad to hear somebody that's a dozen calls that we got the only order people -- -- platinum and -- in a -- -- a -- -- -- -- that's okay there's -- disappointments on the table that hasn't been resolved yet. -- touch suggests I suggest Raytheon and -- I was at the got a person touch has -- not relevant. But Todd says why don't you pay when you grief to a system that would say that. That that that that superlative physics student coming out of Princeton. Wants to teach in the Cambridge schools Q why -- we -- for that student 55000. I'm gonna come out ideally funeral today at physics -- 5000 for me. So Tom I don't know if you were involved when when -- in the legislature with this particular issue but you know not too long ago we had -- -- program in Massachusetts. Which paid people Korea changes especially from science and technology background for an extra 5000 dollars to leave. And and com and -- -- the private check -- commit to -- with a five weeks experience in -- in the summer to practice do some practice each feature. I worked at least three of those teachers and in Cambridge all extremely bright very smart people got Ph.D.s. You know -- on exits -- got -- none of them lasted more than a year. So just pay bonus dollars does not guarantee that somebody's going to be while report plaster it's also a value question regarding your Massachusetts. Are we just about educating kids for science and math are -- about educating kids for the album -- the whole. To hold child IA you know was very good glad I actually mapped out I was more -- -- in the law and politics. And history so does that mean you know we shouldn't be -- history teachers you know have a fair -- wage. Joey -- NW RKO -- toner is here in the mass teachers association Hydro. And let's employ all stuff a -- and 68000. -- yet at salary. -- -- number eight -- don't work. -- -- -- -- -- -- Aren't particularly relevant conversation how many days good teachers work their asses off year round. Thank you to I appreciate that because I thank you wanna point out that. Teaches do work year round and you know the vast vast good teachers and I'd like to see them make more money like in any other industry and actually my members do you support a longer school year in school day if they're adequately compensated for a quick. Record and take a bunch of phone calls for a -- to honor and and wanna hear from everybody from all aspects of education and get your input 6172666. -- succeed. It's Thomas Todd WRKO. Good morning and welcome back Thomas taught here in the studio with Paul daughter from. MTA. He is then that would Damascus sources -- he has yet president of the mass teaches associate union -- -- -- the biggest teachers' union I think in Massachusetts. In they do have a lot of political clout I think compiled might be modest about that we don't have to be so while modest and self effacing. Eight and lots of fights going on about the collective bargaining with taken your -- so maybe we should go right to the -- is that -- -- -- need. And your NWR rarely -- to honor. I think I'd like them. -- -- -- I I it is horse -- iTunes music and instrument or two to English and mister Carter urged on and try to dispel some of them. Of the into the education people commitment and earned an old -- one particular scenario. He was trying to explain. Why what you start talking about air base pay. And of art the art and enterprise guys I have no. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Arms arms Europe from my own bill -- I think -- just on -- it is an area let's say they go to air base pay and it's on. -- a teacher pay which it was an excellent teacher and demand the press from has its. Continues to demand academic recurrence are and as a result mr. -- Future peace distorted sense that I'm gonna come down electric or however long passes. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- No we want is for people who are professionals and understand their industry to make judgments about the employees like they do and every industry would you go to our restaurant. That kept every cook at -- no matter how badly. They cooked and paid them the same based on how long they put out the bad food rather than how well they did the job that's all we have an education today. The teacher who does a terrible job whose board and uninspired for twenty years. Gets paid the same as a teacher -- vibrant and excited. And contributes the most of the kids' lives after twenty years and that is destructive to all of our response from -- and it's not what it's -- -- -- by -- I'm not suggesting. That at all and in fact. It. You know the many of the things you're talking about her in the -- and -- evaluation framework you know what you contributions that team. What are you contributions the community are you -- -- professional learning community. Do you have high standards and expectations of student what we really have is a failure supervision and evaluation and you know I you know someplace -- the evaluation system in school systems is working very well. And other places you continuously his stories about people on five or six years our army -- I climate -- I -- I -- some accurate. And my members -- saying I want a fair objective transparent system. That's gonna help me be a better teacher nobody wants to protect the and I hate using the term bad teacher nobody wants to protect -- the -- quote. Teacher who puts their feet up and reads the newspaper I actually don't think and most people don't think that is that many teachers. Either a lot of teachers who could use some professional development and some guide its support absolutely. I would tell -- kind of missing the point that kind of language it's about having teachers should be inspired your -- should be in a classroom. With somebody who's devoting their life to this because they're passionate and their bright and their fiber diet and they would have the best skills in the war I completely and I would never witnessed I've never seen a teacher like that and that and that might well here's an -- public school. And my you notice that these are electric and I just say good teacher I said inspired exciting teacher never saw one but I saw -- teachers who would model and the class from day one but there. Folder up on their podium from last year and say okay. And they would started their boring monotone that they would do all year. And I saw tons of that and that's about being protected. That's about not having standards of vibrancy -- I was like I was up and I was allowed. School now not gonna say everybody was mr. chips. But the lodge a majority teachers at lab school. We're super Arab and let's not throw and that's and thought that was killed in North Carolina Broadway theater I call it what -- hey what schools proposed the unions would fight it tooth and I don't know that they would but well let's not ignore what. So the rigorous in -- -- teacher who says he's a ball but the with a thirty kids in class he's a ball bust and new if you got what you know you say all we kind of screw around India and it happens at lab school I contended that. So because he's a ball buster it it's -- Then it comes missed the easy to miss the country club -- it and everybody does well. Teacher B gets a race apparently did well. Arab -- that's obscurity education consistently isn't such a vacuum it can't do what every other industry the world now Larry and judge who does a good job that's color -- that's it's sad and that's why we -- that valuation that involves multiple indicators he has you know and casts trends over time where they exist for some teachers. But we need to expand the system you get that history thing going on you guys put amid a -- with a two million dollars up while -- yet the M Castro history -- we don't -- -- -- -- more fill in the blank bubble tests what we do want is you know real. Thoughtful assessments if I you know are quite honestly is a history teacher I wanna see kids writing long -- short essays I wanna see if a kid gets -- Have a copy of the assessment tests that Europe's pushing on to the public schools we we don't have any such drop as a history teacher myself that's what I did in my class structure. I out in a short essays that specific it's usually heavily monitored by anybody ever doing that. Now -- character John you're on WRKO Paul sauter head of the mass teachers association. Good morning gentlemen ally to the job let's go today I wanna make a couple more likely mr. -- come on Harrington and bad. Bad teacher used the -- that you don't like it out of -- like that -- they ate out here are bad colonel it and I you know pretty elect. Two you know to come audio and say that you know it they do it -- -- have any number of support that it's just that idiot credibility regarding the merit based thing. If it teacher aid is a great teacher in his students performing -- be mailed within his speed belt. Don't perform from an academic standards as far as as true lying his concern however is -- attic because he's done got his curriculum. Don't you think those children next year when they go on to their next level of studies at. We're joined -- I want to wait that long join you give a standardized test and the steam coming up. -- -- But I was just gonna say what the end of the year -- a biology program six featured in it. We're honored eighty students are both -- -- -- the end of the year got all going to be acquittal we held accountable so what you have dual those six. Vehicle that's I think that every other question and it. And quite honestly that's part of why we have MCAS and and I'm actually not opposed to -- being used. As a barometer of how nasty enough to be upheld in my dues support national standards which is by dismantling and I was like deceit nationwide high standard. There are there never will be because unions don't want high status archer and because of the -- the reason just server one knows the reason they're moving standards to that the federal government. Is so unions and Democrats can do one stop shopping and selling out educational standards in the country. And we'd just talk. Wonderful. State standards that -- number one in the country. And that gave us number one results that you like to brag about the governor likes to brag about it we just blow the whole thing that said now you're gonna going to look to want things from the standards we we have about as we -- we have made the moves to make it possibly us in this. Why do you -- and you'd like to see some kind of history standards go forward. With we got to MCAS in the -- point that that would begin to fill the route and act as a defense against the lousy teachers mail and then and as opposed for the -- future. A would you folks support -- gas at all grades rather than I think it's 38 and ten now I -- We -- avoid is having just to fill in the bubble tests were asking in in our proposal and I and I'm sorry about the circles is a premium by the ball -- -- -- bubble -- bigoted like arms trying to demean it tests and someone well I while I'm not trying to didn't -- -- that I give tests all the time I just -- meet a player tests all time. But what we don't want. Is for things to be reduced to true false questions Phil and ABC -- Most science teachers will sit here and tell you. That just doing a true false. Factual recall filling them the blank kind of a test is not -- true science about true science is about being in labs. Inquiry. By getting kids to put on. -- they acknowledge posted taught. I think to one of the reasons we got them cast was because without -- cast. Yet teaches who would do these kind of -- subjective evaluations and everyone was passing even though they were illiterate I mean the high school. Tom Birmingham very liberal Democrat as you know said the high school degree in Massachusetts have become a jail. In no way are we suggesting that every teacher should have their own standards. We have curriculum frameworks we hope to have even better curriculum framers going forward we're talking about is what's the best method of assessment and we're suggesting. That ES you need to have some statewide standards as a barometer of as everybody holding up two accountability. But it at the school district level we need some flexibility as well and we want all the science teachers. High performing science teacher sitting in the room with the other teachers and saying this is how -- assess my kids I think we should have common expectations in the high school. And move forward and that's how we can work together. Joseph your NW RKO Paul toner from the MTA -- teachers association Hydro. And I don't. Okay let's try John accent I just. Oh sorry no I wanna address that bad teacher look I'm not saying that there are people out there that aren't. Doing their job and should be shouldn't be removed. What I don't like about them the bad teachers is it's it's every opinion piece to every headline and you would think that every teacher. In Massachusetts in the country was bad what we have is a need to help. Good teachers improve and become great teachers. And we need to be -- working to develop that. Workforce out of concern is that if they were all bad that you would still be fighting to maintain the current. Standard heard about it and I. Say -- as we don't even fight to maintain the standard to keep. Those who are courting -- bad now I think I said you and I can say it because it's been who log in after in the past when I was local teachers union president. I can say you know I don't -- the only numbers I have. You know thirty to forty teachers that I dealt with with the administration the administration did did drop they evaluated them and these were professional status and non professional status teachers. And they were removed from the school system. Those of the people who came to me. I have no idea about people who may have just quietly decided to leave the system. The state doesn't keep records these are decisions that are made at the local level so you have to you know survey every superintendent -- -- try and break. Declaration that were in a break in the military calls for the presidential of bolts on getting out of mass on Tuesday -- his staff we got to ask him about achievements absent a few under now agree. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Valued at 68 dollars to Millwood. Golf course in Framingham Millwood Finley don't 43 is considered the jewel of Middlesex County visit my New England perks dot com that's where you can get your golf foursome valued at 136. Dollars to Millwood golf course for just 68 box you only have ten minutes the text instant text -- would -- The 68680. Right now Brett do you buy my New England person Boston's talk stations. A M 680 WRKO achievement gap as quickly as you can while -- -- wanna put it in context. BCI -- -- in about forty to 60000. Per student. Superlative performance of those kids Cambridge schools you said twenty plus 45 trailing 4000 a year. I don't know that it matches up but tell me about either that achievement gap or what I call the urban black white achievement so. On the they enjoyed all right so the financial achieving gap I mean I'm gonna defend Cambridge again because. Yes they do spend over 20000 dollars per child a Cambridge is also one of the few places and if not the only place left in the commonwealth where students don't have to pay any sort of fees they have free transportation. They can play any sport are being any extracurricular activity they want all of that is covered. Most suburban districts people paying hundreds if not thousands at all so when you factor in that 20000 plus it's because the residents of Cambridge are actually put their money where their mouth -- and backing up yet. -- we talk about achievement gaps. In terms of academics here in Massachusetts we are very proud of the fact that we are number one nationwide when you take all students together but Massachusetts we do have one of the highest achievement gaps. When it comes to lowering com minority English second language students. The good news is those categories here in Massachusetts actually do better than anywhere else in the country but we do have a gap between our white middle class and Asian students. And are lower income and are minority students and that's the gap that we are focused on and we need to work on. We believe that those kids do need more resources and more attention. Now if you talk about private schools -- I mean. You gotta remember to get into private school we have to take a test. Parents are very deeply involved because you know they if they're paid 151000 dollars a year for kids to get vocation I. And -- let's get some calls and Bob Nardelli are killer -- toner from the Massachusetts teachers association. It question to heights question the mystics owner in light of the incredible to depths of charter schools in Massachusetts in throughout the country why did you guys. Spends so much money trying to defeat it and I think you still like doing it if you guys they're so intent on improving education. And chatters who have proved it. Point is meant let's go to Paul for the so actually nationwide only 70% of charter schools are performing regular district schools 35% are doing the same messages is much stronger I Massachusetts here in Massachusetts we have about seventy charter schools. Here embossed and I believe there attend charter schools that are identified as doing quite well. Now I am I -- I actually trying to end the war between charter schools and regular district schools. We do have we still don't get -- unions out of the other schools is hours Aaron Aaron Aaron I actually personally I believe that you know everybody has a right to a union charter school teachers want to be organization they should be organized. So AFT does have two charter schools organized. What I'm saying is is that you know we'd have a fair playing field. And I respect the work that the teachers in the charter schools are doing I'm not trying to pick a fight with them. However we do need to remember they also have the highest suspension rates -- highest expulsion rates. They're able to set their own standards -- in some schools. They have much higher expectations of students and of those kids can't meet those expectations guess where they go they go back to the regular. -- saw you guys should do that too well I think if we're gonna have standards they should be for every kid in the state of Massachusetts and we should all be held to the same standards. Not let me about a well I mean if if if one its charter school in Boston can have higher standards than the Boston Public Schools. Dan and if the kids choose to select themselves out or can't meet those standards general backs of the regular boss -- must say you end up with the dregs of the not I'm not always and I'm Eleanor. -- that I have a kid you -- that data security policy solutions and not allow the charter school that hired as a solution is that everybody should have the same. Level of standard so there can be mediocrity across subordinate our sugar high expectations if there's an example earliest days if there -- one school in the state no matter how they did it with unions without unions. If they were somehow achieving at a higher level. Everybody should be running -- embraced -- NY illnesses might get a question is whether their replica ball. You know we talk of our charter schools there was they -- -- a -- -- the only we don't I have proven as replica ball is is mediocrity and we have to -- had a higher turn over rates of teachers of course they do because they expect a lot of them well I. Which you guys fight of course. You know we expect. A lot of our legislators to his point of if the student doesn't perform to the very high expectations that the three of us seemed to agree yeah. Those students -- go back to. His schools in very small high definition I didn't know that reform that's how the schools should be the school should be like who we -- kids they had a school. Or they had class for the kid I -- we should lousy seduced into the ridge also all be held the same standard that we all have to educate. All kids and not know adult on what -- -- is tomorrow on the charter schools about a dollar and radio we have and we and we still have calls a lot of chatter about the -- -- from -- -- -- -- to from the -- teachers association -- -- -- I'll be back as -- -- -- -- --