The Life And Times Of Whitey Bulger
Feb 13, 2013|
Best selling authors Dick Lehr and Gerry O'Neill joined us to discuss their brand new book on Whitey Whitey: The Life of America's Most Notorious Mob Boss. UIt was Howie's favorite book subject and great preparation for the upcoming Whitey murder trial.
Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.
We're getting closer and closer to the Whitey Bulger trial I thought that they ought to be postponed again now -- beginning to have my doubts that looks like it may start on June 6. The they had another hearing today and I outside the courthouse son Jay Carney the lawyer for Whitey Bulger. Said that he he he. Repeated basically wiped out white said in his conversation to his brother Jackie last last week he said the -- -- was never an informant for via via mrs. This is a novel defense he's he's he's never been an informant for the FBI yet the FBI gave him. Immunity. The commit crimes up to and including murder. So that's that's the current state of the Whitey Bulger defense joining us for the next hour. Are are the authors of a great new biography of -- It's it's called -- eighty. -- The wife of America's most notorious mob boss it's published by crown publishers it will be out officially next Tuesday I bet I bet you could find that in some bookstores already. In boxes in the back and you could certainly order or order brought on line and I get it delivered the first -- it's out. And it's written by two veteran Boston journalists Dick layer and a -- -- new -- offered a couple other books about the about the bugging first the bugging of the -- the prince street headquarters of the mafia. And then about the early the beat some of the early revelations of of the FBI and about why eighties an -- And that now this is this is a very comprehensive book about Whitey and died that I've been and I read it over the weekend and I was very impressed with a and it's just a it's just a great book you guys did a great job at this point -- thanks Aaron. I'm Wilson I want the start off I wrote about it on a Monday in the in The Herald I think I thought this was a good way to -- start about the about why these -- capture and about how he kind of brought in a way he brought on himself. Did Dickey one. Yeah about that you know much has already been told written about and and and and told about his capture about -- woman from Iceland. Who often traveled an indication in Santa Monica. Over the years have become friendly. With Catherine granting -- -- because they shared a mutual interest in cats and and and caring for the cats that roam the streets in one night. One of the things we were able to learn. In addition to his undoing coming from a cash. Is that. What he made an indelible impression. On this woman from Iceland. When she happened in one of their conversations. To and to show her admiration. For a aren't enough is black president Barack Obama and -- has flipped out. You can believes that -- those she admired men like that. And got all hot to anyone can get hot and you know which you walked away. And he was never quite the same again toward her -- spoke toward the end and so when it came time to seeing you know these reports. In June of Tony Levin on CNN about it you know avenue room. Public service and that's around around his -- fugitive weighted balls and -- credit. You know if the -- trying to infer. Yes and -- no and they and the FBI knew apparently -- this and the marshals know. But she was she seem like she was the real the real. Think absolutely when she started calling in and that's how they don't. Established pitchers credible on ships should the details yet to -- but she also had this story about you know you know this well you know altercation over. Barack Obama and and he also this could this be you wore a graduate the worked in the building with next or one month Josh. Bond yeah I mean he he's white he also what would go off on Barack Obama with them. Yeah are just. Go off fun and -- the -- blacks. He described himself as to Josh as being old school who believes that the racist should not mix. And Josh is originally from Mississippi. And then went to school in Boston University. And so he's he's he's. Familiar with that kind of dialogue can go around our discussions of the races -- but I didn't Yeltsin said that it it was all unnerving. The frequency with which you know the many -- -- on the desk he's the -- Jim have to call Alvin Campbell find out how he feels about Whitey they serve time for bank robbery together a media fifties you know and then you'll see pretty yeah. Pretty friendly note to white I don't know if you knew about why these racial book. Racial feelings or not they're there -- stuff -- there's a lot of stuff in here that I you know like the like for instance. You know I always believe the story that that Billy Bulger told Billy thought Billy had this. The strange memoir that he wrote back in the 1990s. You know assurance that you guys credit obviously trying to. There's a lot of weird things in the of the team that he mentions like you know while. You know helping out that Tom Birmingham the former senate and its future senate president's -- you know Hawes. Father because he gets in the -- with suitcase Spittler and you know we don't know that at that point we know we don't know -- suitcase Hitler's connect that'd subway to Whitey Bulger but the most important thing is. -- he says that his father. Is his father was a hard working guy and you know who's trying to support -- family. In the this terrible accident occurred in the in a rail yard and his he was his hand was crushed immediately lost his team and in these evil yankees. It took took the you know the they they fixed him up and then they than they calculated. Down to the minute when he had been injured and stopped working and paid him checked -- got rid of them told of the screw. But but Jerry that that's not that's not quite a true story as it. I don't know sex and it globe article and comes back to 1899. About this fifteen year old. -- from so blossom. Who decided to run away with a pal to -- provident. And take a picked up -- very currency in important protective jail. And the next morning when there are released. James Joseph cultural. Senior. Has decided. Part of our of lifelong. On the run and try to attempt a friend of back to Boston. And he fell between two cows. And his Imus crashed and had to be amputated. And a story says that -- nearly hilarious woman please. Got to. So is fifteen years old. It was the a working guy you. And in -- and -- tells tells on the idea. South -- had. I mean his it's certainly it was a -- lifelong. Affliction that came out of and -- physical and psychological. But yeah I think what you think -- did that well I think she now I think thank you wanted to put the best possible face on. Whose father situation. And to this kind of morass grossed about and also fell. Trying to earn a living for his family when he was a runaway teenagers. Yeah I think one of the things that's done. I think makes you know Arafat biography it's a comprehensive and everything is -- We did the best we -- to Trace the family tree. And debunk some of these men sentenced. Emerged around the Bulger family all these years one on notable one being the one we're just talking about his father. But also other things about -- in a father men. Talk about a hard life. You know and we can we learn that you had a prior marriage. Before he you know he met and married down. No well yeah exactly and and then going back to my new Finland to. I mean manager Jerry you know and really ran that down and it it's pretty -- draft -- Those -- generation now owns a very hardline Communists. The great grandfather came from -- Out of one of those it was no estimate. Having studies some of those other parks. That's the most horrible sustained. Irish immigration. Wasn't. You know to blossom and -- coast in the dark who's really to saint John's Newfoundland. Analysts news early nineteenth century and that's my great grandfather William Bulger as a turns out to -- Landon about 1825. And Amanda numbers weren't great but -- at 30000. Irish guys so it wasn't -- -- -- and Whitey and go earlier to voters. Gender and on the -- that's. Well yes a lot the of the -- yes. And I think most people generally think I mean how you correct me if I'm wrong on. Generally assume that the ball just came directly from Ireland right -- yeah I think so and there were several generations in Newfoundland and the father. My cash I -- his father died before he was born in efficient use account fisherman and a bowling accident. And then when it and then when you don't know what his father's only six years old. His mother leaves Newfoundland for Boston leaving behind a six year old who doesn't come and follow her into his twelve years old. Right I mean it in three years later -- is -- -- an accident that man. And he gets and then it turns out he's got a record to these -- he was you know script public drunkenness record record up assault with a weapon and -- wearing. I'm not surprised that's that's probably if when his first marriage and was dissolving he has a son of Lucent. Yeah. So it in the the wrote why he never really got along well with his father that he. Not a -- you get the sense of that just in the whole family dynamic. Given the fact that. You know in the family moved to South Boston and settled in in -- harbor. And the late thirties. You know 1940s. The senior vulture is. You know in his late fifties. He's really an old guy for the time and life expectancy for men is about sixty. In what it is just around ten or eleven and he's looking up at this remote withdrawn. Half of them you know crippled man. And yeah and it's clear editing along. If they still had money to send the -- the poor or to lease and white you're the -- want to parochial school -- was wondered about that no where did they not -- career obviously but he is somebody at some money there it's an old school right. And I think it lasted that. Now aren't at that. He could learn either learn the nice Olbermann. That he the isn't he isn't mesa in -- which -- -- the people dropped out of some math credit yeah. And that handwriting improved -- in prison and I -- an actress. It was something that. Now do we know how -- another part of the book that I that was new to me was that he is today is relationship with father drying them who you know was then that the that the BC law school. Later became the first first first priest a Roman Catholic priest -- while ago gore congress how did how did they know one. I think the the kind of thing you do when you're doing a biography like this I think you make the reasonable inference that with bill -- you know and during -- law school. And China and assuming the -- championship. Then that's the connection. And I think that's a reasonable inference because there's no. Nothing in the -- you know we checked to drive in papers have PC and and it's silent via on this subject. And and the -- -- because -- the those papers -- most of professional papers is not very little if any personal stuff in there and this is a personal kind of thing. But that certainly was a revelation to uncover in his prison pop. This letter for help from from -- in 1956. Number letters -- oh yeah you know he he you know was officially -- -- -- -- Prison record as his. Potential running his future paroled advisor. So it's almost like college application it looked better to have the dean of the BC law school. It down as your parole advisor. We're talking to Jerry O'Neill and they're clear they're the authors of the new book that's coming out it's it's just a great biography. Whitey Bulger at the wife of America's most notorious mob boss in general a lot of people have their own questions and I go I just want to talk to you guys -- like but. Let's take it -- -- -- also because I know people have other questions that like to want to ask you. Bob your next with how we car Jerry O'Neill and declare go ahead Bob. Yeah I. Back to the connection with. The Jesuits and Whitey Bulger did you ever hear of anyone saying that. Billy Bulger actually came and stayed with the Jesuits when he was in town in Boston. The white people you like Tebow. Do you liquor store one day and yes. I give her latest -- heard this story. Well my friend told me that every summer for about three Summers. Why people are showed up at a place where the Jesuits live and -- my friend mentioned it. It was probably was up in the attic right. Now he was in -- wrong but he never. He never came in attended a public areas. At all at the same time Billy Bulger was actually. Teaching a class. Up there like lentils. And -- -- mentioned it to one of these Jesuits. And -- guy ran into office I guess in the next day he never saw him again ever. You have a timeframe for this does not mean I've never heard of that. Yeah it was. Well I'm not exactly sure the year he was there -- the only thing I know is it coincides with the same time right after Billy Bulger. It was the senate president is teaching -- the Boston College. In your zone present for long yeah but it was right after he retired. OK so eighties these athletes. So anyway to -- -- said. He looked exactly like come and now he wasn't sure what to do about it. Dollar is there indication that he and Katherine were ever separated during the of the years on the run. No indication now -- not just -- opposite yeah amendment and then. There are inseparable. Thanks for the call Bob you don't you know one thing it's you know -- and those in your book you almost make them eat you almost feel sorry for quite the end you know when he says the reason we couldn't get him was he wasn't a gangster anymore. You know you almost feel sorry for the guy but -- you think I mean. How he feels if I mean after all the people we killed when he used ball leave the the people he extorted from the people ski aired and intimidated in the present company included. And you know I mean I just -- -- no sympathy whatsoever. Who does a man who's who. Professor Stan sympathy from the end of the day yeah I guess I guess that's right I would just I was just like him off -- (%expletive) some people might read your book and they might say at the end will you always like you know he's not a gangster anymore. Well I think the people and what we're reflecting its of people in Santa Monica who knew him mr. Verdasco. -- harmless old alleged retiree from Chicago. And and so they were you know when when Mardy was captured -- that was the reaction all around you know his immediate vicinity genuinely -- and they were just shocked if this guy. Who seems so harmless. Was in fact when he poultry from Boston. To me our trust one of the most fascinating things to us. How he managed an increase to a pretty good job of revealing in -- and entangling us how we managed to. Switch masks. And adopt the Charlie Tesco persona. And so much has been sentences. In -- blood lust his pleasure of killing in Winona. Jurist in nine years. But the last known killing was -- ever -- in 86. And so you know. You know getting into his head and -- -- -- -- Are absolutely for it you know for many years but to survive on Iran and the way he did he became Charlie -- it's like changing America. And how does a guy who is. You know the big man in the underworld in Boston how you flicked a switch so that you become Charlie Tesco. You're no longer running up and -- criminal empire. Don't you have that -- to be. Admired controlling detail I don't know but I mean that's a kind of thing I think we do pretty good job of of explaining that transition. Yeah it it. But how the some of those guns and use that some of those guns he brought with them but some of those -- he -- at the pick up in California right. Yeah that's and then come out and filing residing in federal court has Nevada Nevada. Concerto with the constant. Who picked up through four guns there. Yet the private dealers and I think that's what the government was saying I'm -- recent throwing Utah Nevada where. -- there's no background -- to acquire and private exchanges open but I think confused. And the pork if you read the chapter or on the victims. In the compilation. Of the travails. -- terrible deals they got a black three times and lost a lot of alone. -- went to the FBI and -- -- classroom. And in Iowa fought tooth and now -- that department justice. And -- Trace eleven people who. -- Family members murdered on the FBI watched as the -- after the 1970. And and runs. For a decade and content -- its very sound very difficult to. Trying to compliment. -- -- No I don't then settles fairways are so screwed up through no I'm not then what is carrots kids Semitool home kill themselves to themselves from the red -- trades you know maybe that wasn't connected to their father's death but it certainly didn't help it amount not to punt Donahue famine -- And under duress from the Howland to Leah davis' incidentally these -- analysts and Melissa Davis was a -- now and on and she died of drug overdose. You know and -- -- just -- used to call The Herald late at night you know. Caught -- to follow this screaming you know just high as a kite saying you know -- wanna speak Stevie -- lawyer I've got to talk to Stevie you know I mean it's just. It's just a New Hampshire it's still going on you know this this screwed up generations. I don't know thank you on -- home run something like that. 18774694322. We're talking to what declared -- O'Neill the authors of the new book Whitey. Published by crown -- coming out there next Tuesday officially but that you probably you brought find it around here. And you can certainly order though on the line Kathy your next with how we car and I declare and in Jerry -- go ahead Kathy. Rally against -- say -- -- -- what we have Billy about a couple scary about what happened it was bad. But the same president that's -- -- got well you're supposed to pitch -- -- -- in the passing that gets so. You think you think so capping. You don't know you know you don't think you know the real story. -- Tournament with one of the real daily Q but the gentleman that made a -- Yeah I guess a baby maybe your rights yet. I think what's interesting about the park. -- -- -- -- -- -- Did you know the true story about. The -- Bulger lost his arm I think his passing in and and -- in the certain parallel to why do you eat and yelled senior Bolter was a runaway. When when this tragic accident happened to us and hard working kid in and that really -- At the same you know fast -- -- -- you know -- and around the same time -- I mean he's he's living the life on the streets and and runaway. So that you know that was kind of an interesting. Revelation. -- on both of those things about what happened today also courtroom with budget parties -- that he was never informant I mean it's it's so. It's it's. Pot itself made you know and made it perfectly clear in your book. That he turned on his bank propagating in 56 and turned on them I mean even if he's nothing else he was an informant backed right absolutely. He was to 2.2 guys explain that what happened that he would do what Jerry. Let that yeah I know so -- yeah no I mean you know following what we called in the -- -- is bankrupting the year of 1955. You know he was he was he was -- out by one of his gang members of the cost method you were gonna. And and you know why he was arrested in Revere and marches of 1956. What you know new records are records that we got ahold of show. Is set down. You know the -- were already in a couple of is there any threat from a restaurant Germany from Cambridge and also Carl Smith who regretted. But why do you navigate and giving them bar shark Richard -- shirt and William O'Brien to other -- of his -- cohorts. And their resolve buried and you know previously and disclosed FBI reports. And why did you wanna put in writing that you know he just wanted to do orally. So we can probably be in denial or deny all these years later. And I think one of the most astonishing things that is that. To help corroborate what you're saying that he convinced his girlfriend at the time to sort of early prototype of Kathryn Grant. You know Jackie Jackie McAuliffe not to cooperate. With the government. On -- -- and the other opera Bryant. So it it was a it was in instead of a way of life that became the corrupt alliance with the FBI they went -- for a couple days in decades. This was a single you know series of -- a single event in effect. But there's no question that you know. Then he learned a life lesson and the benefits of of of being an informant. Right it he and so so in fact he he was an informant ten years before. Stevie Flemmi became. A different -- was just a one time began a different circumstances there wasn't a -- informant program -- launched this was that. Just the you know that wouldn't be as usual duress that you had to use your bank -- street crime and cops trying to turn and yeah cooperate and he did -- Dennehy was and he was now Jay Carney says he didn't do it that. And so is Stevie Flemmi Russert was. Really the one who developed the relationship with the FBI independence the benefits of of how far they would go and so I mean he's human side of the the trend says that's great. You know the other day it was so the prototypical. An FBI informant. I know you know Whitey and and and that Jay -- had a pretty. Tall mountain to climb here because. Yasser honesty Fleming who -- and in his own court case launched -- -- now known call to as the informant defense yet. So he's on record. Officially with his attorneys and in you know and in an earlier round of of course. You know life here of pushing an informant defense -- and work and so somehow what he's trying to get out from under an informant thing for. I would send more psychological reasons and any -- else. What -- -- was the same -- it was almost the same thing that white was saying to Jackie last week as Stevie was saying two to those other guys from Italy. He I didn't know he was writing this stuff down you know I don't it was the exact same line he was even use Rico I I didn't get paid. FBI agent bastard must've taken that money. You know how -- just. Well naturally it it's -- Similar defenses are now. And apparently no fuel yes. We'll find out soon futile they're going to be but I get you're right they are going to be -- politely. Cory you're next with Howie Carr. Jerry O'Neill and declare that the authors of Y eighty go ahead quarry. -- And larceny and perhaps a little while and are both periods where your connection with what lady is. I mean we know which he -- you. He knows who I am yeah I mean I used to drive by a the liquor store all the time and he would thus spared me. He didn't I used to write about his brother at the state house and yeah you know no one had been writing about it -- for a while because -- he would threaten the last guy who about it and I just kind of fell into it and he did like me very much and does so it's supposedly. Well he told he told Jack times the all channel channel 56. Anchor. Or he didn't tell one of the guys the liquor store said how come how we never comes in here. However comes in here will have a another -- -- a dumpster waiting form outback and you'll be another Robin Benedict. And then that started telling people what they've never did zips -- a calmly started tell people apparel. Tell -- to stay out of South Boston you know there's something bad could happen to him and then of course they said they they we're gonna shoot me from the graveyard. But I notably the graveyard stuff this it won't -- throw it around a quarter from me so let's were now that was -- -- it was not a big deal but I. I just you know it it was you you don't want -- -- a serial killer -- kind of what's about the he's gonna kill you I mean even if he's just as sort of an empty threat because you got to watch you -- -- -- And it's also it's hard for anyone today to go back in time. And and and explaining and you know the eighties in the environment and you know when -- he was at the pinnacle of his power but he also had this sort of Teflon myth of the Robin and and John -- was you know the ultimate. You know God's gift to the FBI and prince of the city and and they're untouchables right so it's it's tough you know it's so much has changed in in a good way right but it's really hard to -- To get people to remember those days. The other thing was there was no copy could really go to meet you know you couldn't go to the FBI you know I mean everybody knew that. And in the Boston Police. It was kind of iffy there too because he they had all those guys on the -- And even the state police -- minute -- there were pretty much legit but they were they were concerned as well because you know anybody anybody in the state police stepped out of line they got stomped down pretty good -- Yeah then not and I had them reprisal. Legislation not yes Stevie -- -- ability. Poulter an issue and yet no I thought that was big I touch your yeah I thought I thought that was a big part of your story but that was that was totally new information to me that for me is back him up but. They you know -- you guys remember the congressional investigators and all the since people it was set up here rise in the summer what 2003 your 2004. They want to actively tried to find out who whose fingerprints were on this. Legislation this guy -- -- bottom of lieutenant colonel was giving. Why the heart -- this as a congressman Dan Burton put it. And so so all of a sudden there's this. -- loosely attached outside -- to the state budget to force Donovan and four other guys. -- And they never could figure out who -- who -- who was behind it. And now Stevie Flemmi says that we know that -- quite be what told him he was going to -- to see if they couldn't do something about. About this. -- -- sigh of when I think about it just says the only explanation men have come come out of nowhere right then the only target because. And it was old Donovan who was after Whitey Bulger right and does. I'm really proud to do it takes some formal action to move the legislation along. But he knew when he testified in front of congress who served. -- four times. Did he talked to anyone have any role on the legislation soon. I think I got to. Very contradictory. Explanation yeah and then Flemmi responding to that at. Not forthright it was his words not had not -- worked right. Yeah let's take a break 1877469432. To be getting questions about Whitey Bulger now's a good time to get him out though where with Dick declared -- -- the authors of the new great new book that's out. Why you polite -- of America's most notorious mob boss. 1877. -- 6943221877469432. So. There's going to be a very interesting trial pickets off in the side in the summer mean and it's especially -- testifies I mean it's new and who knows what he's nervous I mean he's she's capable sing in the and so where -- -- -- with the authors of a new biography of -- it's called wavy in and its. Yeah the life of America's most notorious mob boss it's it's from now next week crown publishers you can get an awful lot on the line. Sure can order it and -- your local bookstores to maybe mid may already be out in some local bookstores they've via the they take them out of the boxes war early. And that we have -- Jerry on the Olympic where the guys who wrote the book it's very it's -- about a day and a half its it's it's great that lights go blow very very interest extra. 187746943. Two to how many Boston -- and sell the war on white -- payroll never heard in the names says 857. That that's one of the unanswered questions that we're all waiting to for answers and one of the things. Regarding you know Jay Carney and his and his defensive way. -- that we might all benefit from his if he's mean he's pushing the government hard and if he gets to. Explore some of the things he wants to explore we may find some more answers to these kinds of questions. What doesn't does does it doesn't. For me I actually let the at the age six on the corruption -- hasn't -- mentioned some of the names in the have been out. What dimensions are the FBI and names. It doesn't there's no names of Boston cots products and something recently. Where -- percent or twenty plus and costs insulting you are on the take but no names. Right and I know we've mentions it in the other the basics you mentioned Matthew with a Austin you know I'm still work for instance right and and -- -- -- crops that helped him with some of the Jimmy's Jimmy the barriers Brothers. It split. And not be nice up and on the tank and no problem today than. -- -- The excellent defense fund 187746943220. David you're next with how we car declared -- -- go ahead David. -- while when you have these segments so much I want that got first thing. The rule. They custodians that in in demonic may have been from all the but how it if that's true how is it warm for Michael and album -- Estonia upbeat and secondly. Well done. Wind that we get the out retribution against -- -- troubled pop -- he wrote about. What a great guy I really like cruising -- up the unit with the top down. You know like the prince of the city in -- -- Community in and advice to -- people that it actually and I tried. Any rapper cut so what pattern -- memories of legacy of I'll see you basically what the bat that dirt bag of dirt bag. But I you know will will -- that as a frat. And I enormous. Socially legend and he was a little bit and Arafat with just how tormented woman Donovan. -- anybody. Condominium very strong feels as he you know that why do you was as he says now all of a guy. I don't think he had a full understanding of the only analysis first job after. It he did and now those -- very resourceful guy. And so I think he was -- -- tennis had turned a little clip highlighted by discussion and. In our new book we reveal some of the relationship in the closeness between well and the -- family. When Willis covering the Red Sox. And what he was in. Leavenworth. Will always done an effective examines both your family's ambassador because. They necessarily have to finance in the wherewithal to be frequently visiting widely. But when YD went up when will McDonough was cover in the Red Sox and Kansas City he goes seeing him in leavenworth. Any also has the benefit of the of again the political lovers being pulled on their behalf because. House speaker John McCormick. What call ahead and the prison make an exception to Stanley only visitors. And I remember when that when -- died in the above what what Billy wasn't a few literally collapsed he was so he was so emotional about the whole thing -- officer mark -- next with how we are. Jury O'Neal would declare go ahead officer mark. -- -- -- -- -- AI I have a prediction and a question I do predict that what he will take the stand. And. I don't know officer mark would've predicted that a while back but he's acted pretty crazy. Well yeah it's just not put a show on another example of you know he's gonna be to -- -- you know -- -- -- and waited Sitchin. My question is do you think in the background as an entity. Think taken off the table about all the safety deposit boxes that the post be around the world where those are going to be left alone and never discussed. In exchange or other things. You're in Utah who exchanged between you know between the government and why these people. Right between -- -- -- maybe -- made the demand that we're not gonna even mention the safety deposit box and its contents in exchange for maybe a couple tidbits. That they're trying to pull out. I don't think there's any conversations along those lines between the government and and what his defense team whose cars as far as I know. The money was confiscated reportedly put more heat on Catherine -- she's she has -- know where somebody's -- -- offices are. Maybe but I mean but which again that is is. It -- the last frontier. Is all that money. Where is that money right and you know for a long time they didn't have way he and his money because you know money's the currency of what he did it right right. As music as a crime boss so now they have him. But the -- that they still don't have his money. And the challenges. Is for him to get that money into the hands where he wants it to end up. You know I think there was the last line in the last lines of your book. We're have to take a break but that I appreciate you guys -- what me it's it's a great book I can't recommend it highly enough Whitey it's. By Kraft group published by crown not declare and Jerry -- of the authors I'm Alan --