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Opiate addiction and families

Mar 24, 2013|

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Then okay. Welcome to write -- radio on WRK fifty mining it would be -- And I'm here without BP I need my fight here than I. Oh good good reversed. You're listening to new England's foremost addiction mental health program. And I wanna say thank you to all of our listeners. The I practice and I -- -- -- -- I went to I want you and I wanna invite them to our FaceBook we'd like them to the likeness is that I think that right he lent them to like this yes we want you to go to our feet -- he's not very face but he -- Well you know I try to get on him. So we big week here. And rates and we had I tenth anniversary I wanna say happy anniversary. You anniversary -- -- well it's our universe. And it was it was a wonderful time and learn the we you know staff was there and people we'd help to where there and people who helped us tell people where there was just so wonderful. Big love fest -- -- enough and it was it was we had. You know over a hundred people show up family members. People alumni. And also some really wonderful entertainment. Yes we had Simon -- Who I had a crush on when I was thirteen I continue to have offense and that's our company right -- this thing yeah right when the members of the founder of founding members of that company and free yes but. Freeze even -- -- we act and he sang a couple of bad company song and in my sunlight introduced him to -- companies lacking that -- yesterday. Hi Lou with spoon and could there could. Yeah it was just a terrific evening in the end I wanna say thank you to everyone who showed up in and help us celebrate ten years this. Ten years of of services that. That right turn. In this I think it was you know it was all very fun and celebratory. Next and then and then. Senator at the sender atonement came up and -- really talking about. Why treatments important. Stephen -- what are our house vote no anyways just so inspirational week I mean used his preaching to the choir of course space talking about Al. You know. How many how dangerous. Trends are for people not just he was -- use the example of the military is that you know from Massachusetts staring at all during all the wars we lost 78. People from Massachusetts but during that same -- time. We last about over 3000 people from drug overdoses and it's the -- group of people him is the same age group it's mostly young people and it was just. It is just really poignant to talk about that. This is his war on drugs now and more on openness saying he is so he's such a great speaker he is just a powerful man you know and and one of the biggest voices out there that advocating for substance abuse treatment and mental health services and in Massachusetts and we we really appreciate him. Anyway but we'd really appreciate him showing right turn the other evening. Terrific you know just terrific. And we got to say thank you to the board members as well that was great -- And everybody else -- you know who you are and you know who you are but you know tonight is you know an ongoing theme here because you know. Happy people say that addiction is a family disease. And they say that it's a family disease for many reasons because. You know if someone is struggling with substance use and substance use disorder or other mental health issues. It's not just the individual that is struggling. The whole family gets taken in by. It's taken in by the disease and ends up doing things that -- from now suddenly I'm convinced they can't believe it got to that. But tonight's theme -- -- that opiate addiction in the family and how parents can identify a addiction. And that was trip and that is what their role is in their in their kids recovery and it's really interesting because. Did you know this is we have to people who are really have who have been through it and -- can share their stories. And you know we've had a show fairly recently that -- -- from the that kid's point of view and this is an interesting. Right we we were talking about. Not my kid the Brockton. But tonight. With the theme -- opiate addiction in the family and how parents can identify fiction. We have. We have our friend Jack from learn to cope. -- who is going to be joining us shortly and we also have an easy forget the name right here. He grocery disk it's anxious that -- But I -- Melissa. Same for me please lakes and -- like smear. Melissa Wexner the author of the book. Heroines puppets and and that's a book about her daughter. Amy -- struggles. And her and the family struggle with. A progressive. A progression of Medicaid and drugs. And ending up with heroin and then her daughter overdosed. Witches and she's gonna talk to us about that. And Mexico does it's a you know who is a support group it's a non professional support group it's for parents. And family members who are dealing with loved ones. Addicted to well. It started off with you know with opiates. Heroin moxie carton and but we've also wanna say. Other drugs as well including alcohol and alcohol is drug and for those listeners so is marijuana. Yes that's cut and and it's often the first one bright and you know. You know a drug -- a drug -- a drug as a drug as we -- on the show but let's talk just for a minute a little bit about opiates because that's where learned to -- started. Let's kind of defined what opiates. And why and what I really thought it was important to talk about wire OP it's different. Because everybody's you know attendees agendas attend his strength but opiates are very addictive very quickly. And their much more deadly than any other medication I mean any other. Between an opiates consist of the painkillers. Oxy code non. You know -- cassettes and flake as in all of those but it also consists of heroin. Methadone and think -- so I just funny people to be aware of the reason TH show is focusing on heroin addiction. Is because. It in this state kills so many more people. Then car accidents than anything it's the number one leading cause of accidental death in the state and wearing travel if you go look at maps. New England and harrowing. Apparently best buddies. I think that the issue here is is the accessibility of these medications that are in your medicine cabinet that are opiates things that are painkillers. But also you know other things like anxiety medications which can be very dangerous as well you know and very addictive but. It's the it's. You know as we've talked about on this show numerous times that opiates in pain medications. Arm are prescribed and sometimes over prescribed and available. There that are available there the availability of of pain medication is an ongoing. Issue -- now. So let me really when it so really trying to talk to Melissa. And Jack about is -- get to this after the break also what you know. What it tells you story tell us a little about what you notice him start with you Melissa how does -- -- It started when we didn't recognize her depression can presents a different plane and a young person because Amy was only so. Quite gracious and friendly and outgoing but she had anxiety depression and low self esteem. And I've learned from reading her. Journals after she died that she did start with caffeine pills which -- to sleeping pills and she started with marijuana. And she even wrote in her journals that. She. Now got what we were saying about marijuana became becoming gateway drug because she ended up progressed into cocaine too -- for Kansas sophomore high school. Tissues and some with her she first started heroin at seventeen. When she was in junior high school and if I -- in her purse and I had no idea. What if I couldn't really was I mean I was watching house at the time and we were joking about his addiction popping the pike it and I had no idea how serious it really was right and Jack's. So it was a it was a very steep climb. And but you're proud to say that your daughter yes she's nineteen she's seven months -- seven months clean and that's great round of applause for tax dollars. -- a big day. That this very exciting and we're gonna you know we're gonna you know. You must be very just thrilled about that it's a whole different. Daughter that money back there is now working she's doing things she's actively engaged in life. And so now when it looked back I see how funny -- she wasn't life what a difference. And so we're gonna reach out to our callers and say give us a call 617. 2666868. If you would like to share your stories we're if you like to learn more about. From our guests this evening our book our book. And or learn to cope. This segment was brought to you by foundations recovering network. We're gonna take a break here shortly we're gonna come back you're listening to right turned radio with woody and -- dean and on WRKO. 680. Will be right. And. It's. Right welcome back through. Right -- radio my name is what -- -- I'm here with -- dean you're listening to WRKO's. Six -- And we we joining us tonight is Melissa Wexner and the author of heroin puppet. And our friend Jack who was a member of learn to cope apparent support group here. And we're just we're just document how they found out about their -- -- addiction and when I went to I mean. Of their progression of the -- has addiction. This is beautiful quote in the book that says it's it's from Melissa spoke with just heroines puppet. Describing she's describing giving out her Christmas card and everybody would say I'm -- does your family is beautiful and she would save yourself. Can you tell which ones -- heroin addict. And I wanted to -- talked about how did you stay how will you save of the town went Wentworth for signs that you saw when you look back. But they your daughter hasn't backed. -- in trouble. We didn't actually know she was a heroin addict until about six weeks before she died when she came with our drug counselors need to tell me that she. The -- continued to go to treatment but we have signals throughout high school I'll never forget the days she showed up for cross country practice high on marijuana and I was teaching at the same school -- And so we had a meeting with the principal at 430 and then at 7 o'clock I'm in front of parents on many of whom had done it's on the cross country team. With my daughter having been tied for practice. And then there were no other things signing of positive talks in Africa Cano one point. Erratic behavior but we never thought that it could be addiction and -- and to adequately what kinds of things that you see who. We didn't really have a clue. It caught us by surprise. And we only caught. At the end we only realized the extent of the problem when we found that she wasn't telling us the truth of what she did over the weekend and that we confronted her and then. You know we started down a path we never saw coming. Well but -- let me ask giving -- did you know that she was using other substances before she picked up the -- did opiates we did and she was going to and so what at what age did that start she's now nineteen. A little before she was eighteen. And so NC knew that there was some marijuana use -- -- and we did and she had gone to AA for awhile. And she started to back out of that and then she started to disengage. Sleep a lot. Not shall work. Started to to sort of be on social if you will from we didn't know what it really was. And we were we were shocked once we veteran to detox listed as the fact it was -- and see -- I think that this is important. Information. Because people need to know about the progression. Of addiction that it doesn't just start with opiate sometimes it starts. In their adolescence with marijuana. Or alcohol or alcohol and my Hispanic quote two weeks again at that if you think something so it probably is and that was the one event when it. Tanks today you know was in that program at some point talking about it. You know his experience with it. And that was a very important piece a message to the parents if you think that something is up. There's probably something going on give us a call 6172666868. It's so you you learn to. -- you learn that your daughter was using substances and far into this progression. And so what did treatment look like at that point did you proposed treatment at that point. Well we learned she was a heroin addict she knew she wanted to go to detox and rehab. But even through our pace school we knew we had to get her counseling and she had counselors but she was able to manipulate them. And not give them a whole story and quite frankly some of the counselors she was west. Were not specialists in dealing with this disease so much like if you had cancer you would go to allowing colleges to if you have -- addiction you should be seeing a Doctor Who treats addiction. Not you know it's a non generalist and -- Well the police in the book Santa manipulation is another word for survival now. And and and we talked about -- Fort Jackson telling about the manipulation. It it. You know for our daughter at least the manipulation was constantly telling us what we wanted to hear. So the more we heard what we wanted to each year at the safer we thought she was the easier became for her to use the drug. So you know it's as if heroin is standing between your child and you. And the heroin just wants to feed itself and as happy as stiff there. You know if that addict is sitting on the floor doing heroin so whatever makes that comfortable with what the attic we'll tell you. And it's apparent it's counterintuitive to think that your child is lying to you. Is that your child. Back in my lap and you know I and I know. You struggled. Lists you struggled with how much to believe and how much not to believe and how much tracking to do and how much spying to do and had had how did you balance. -- com I felt I was learning it every single juncture when I was really missing at that point with some kind of the parental support group like -- learned to cope that I think would have helped keep me in much better shape going into the shares. Right I mean it gave -- -- in saint cap idea. Because because here's some -- saying something and it sounds so reasonable. And it's in knowing you're like and then they what they're -- and you've agreed to something like. How did that happen. We'll even things like my daughter would say because I'm a girl but I'm not cynical by any drugs on the streak does that feel to once safe. And so that you know in a way make you feel comforted and also gives her sort of the cover to go do that. I'm. Absolutely sure. You know and -- this kind of goes back to our point that parents. Are the ones who are struggling just as much as the person with substance -- Or should I guess -- say the problem. Substance use so it's is this really important that. You know the parents here this that now you're in a place at a juncture where your child begins soon try to get honest with you but not. Fully honest with you. That as you said they're protecting or defending their right to use substances. It. Must must have felt pretty awful to move -- daughter's at that at that point. -- Well which you know we confronted her she refused and -- -- that loss climate that relationship and -- and it was a loss -- and we want to learn to cope and the thing that we were able to to see is that. We realized that. You know we weren't alone we realize that everybody has has a story can and we were able to get support. Because we had to make a hard decision which is you can't live here anymore. And as a as a -- of a daughter that's a very tough place today. And yet we went to learn to cope we heard consistent places that's the right decision to make because she can't make CDC to do Caroline. He can't make it easy to do drugs you have to have a little discomfort and accountability. If they gonna start to get better. Must've felt a little kind of counter intuitive to say. You know I love you but I can't. I can't -- we can't tolerate this. I love you -- keep you safe and I you happily perhaps. It's an impossible sentence that it did everybody who's in this dilemma eventually gets to. I mean and Melissa you set you were told by a doctor that. He thought that Amy was in a prisoner's dilemma what it what does that mean team I mean this this can. -- I think. She would she was equally troubled about how. How to deal with Allison and in this column are Frenchman to cope with sank. On. She would do. Good things in the more good things she did the more -- to believe her you know academically she was taking AP courses. She transfered into Boston College she was talking about going on for a masters in nursing. So a lot of -- -- -- -- your kid is saying these types of things particularly around education. You think -- well they can't be getting into this much trouble. But in fact bomb. What I am finding -- more talk with parents is that. Oftentimes it issuer really bright kids who can get into trouble really quickly because they think they can outsmart the addiction with there's parts. And it's a disease you can't outsmart cancer you can outsmart addiction. And and it's you know Melissa and I wanna follow up with that with the question because you talked in your book -- on page 61 in your book. You know you talked about and and it. Avoidable choice. That was a burden on the system when you were talking about your child. You know at. You know that the at at the hospital. -- city. Pediatrics and that you felt you you felt a little guilty about this and why wouldn't you know why would addiction be considered. You know less than any other medical issue with this point. Get acting it's a stigma that we grew up with thinking that you know an addict is doing this solely by choice and yes they make. May make a few dead since the initially but the disease hijacks the brain and they no longer have the control left that we may think that certain. Yeah. And the other thing about the manipulation -- that I think. Is that when your daughter's -- telling you the truth. They also apparently wanted to believe it. They wanted to be that person they didn't they don't wanna be depressing news sitting around disappointing their parents and themselves over and over and over. And that's kind of just. You know how old Caroline and opiates just runs people's lives nobody wants it to happen. This segment was brought to you by foundations. Recovery network. We're going to come back. And we're gonna continue this conversation with Jack and Melissa. You listening to right turned radio give us a call 6172666868. Will be right back. All right welcome back to right turn the radio my name is what it is when I'm here with the team you're listening to WRKO. Six the EU. And we're here with. Two guests Jack from man to camp analysts who wakes back. Who wrote a book. Using her daughter's. Journal and you know her own journal can put together this sequences of events that eventually led to her daughter's death. You have a beautiful segment that you were going to be threats from cute daughters. Diary -- about halfway through rehab and says. Drugs have been my plan my soul coping skills for six years now. At the beginning of this last run I still had my head on straight ahead the aftertaste of sobriety reminding me that I didn't need to live the way I was. They truly thought I would only used for a short period and get back to my normal life. But -- the use increased my control quickly diminished and once into the chronic stage of my addiction I lost sight of what was most important to me. I stand today and heroines -- Feeling answer if every fighter in nineteen it's still responding only to the stimulation of potential drug use. The disease has a stronghold. In white knuckled fists fingernails ripping through my skin prying deeper and deeper into my body. I wonder what I can possibly do to break free from its grass. And remember the life I used to love and Chela for. How that is set to beautiful way -- things powerful thank you fishing. Very powerful. CNN I think that just shows the ambivalence I think. Everybody comes in to this. Camp comes into my office and I work with a lot of families. Same -- -- I do and basically you can do anything you raised did an eloquent daughter who's you know. Who fell for this thing. She told us there's nothing we really could have done differently. -- and you -- -- so and and everybody I think this scary thing is when their books out there like this and when learn to cope. When you -- of those meetings. It's every bit you know it it's anybody it's not like you know it was always easy -- you know -- -- those people but it's definitely it's really that's right. So yeah -- May -- Jack. You can talk ruled that abouts. How you have handled. This anger aura you know feeling disease feelings. To you know dealing with us -- nineteen year old daughter who struggled with. -- -- well the amazing thing I thought was when I went to learn to cope someone's said. You know you didn't raise your daughter to be heroin addict. And so one of the things to realizes. You you can't make your daughter or son CEO he can't make them heroin addict it's it's really -- question -- how do you handle what's been presented to you you can't control the disease that you can control your reaction to it and so how do you become consistent. How do you understand it. You may have to act differently than you would with another child who didn't have an addiction problem you gotta be a little counter intuitive you know she said you have to make sure that. You that you treat her in a way that helps her. Almost at the bottom as soon as she can so that she can start the road to recovery and and when you run into enabling and you run into making it easy for somebody to heroin he really do them a disservice but it's apparent you wanna keep your child safe. You wanna keep your child protective. And yet that's absolutely the wrong thing to do if she tells an addict. But that must've been a process. Getting to that place because as we hear from parents all the time -- that they go through this. This cycle of arguing with their kids and having these fight with the kids which only makes the parents. More -- -- I wanna say sick because they feel like they're going through the same kind of cycle so it must've been a process for you. It was a process. What may be the most angry was that I found heroin in my house. And that absolutely. Set me off that my house would be invaded in -- way by the addiction. It made it. He changed it for me and I had a lot of anger about that issue. And it is a process you have to go through the -- have to go through -- stages of change if you wealthy so that -- get out at the point we try to do the most good that you captain. And they think the other piece of advice treat from the Pentagon as few weeks again -- them. You know it's not the friends they hang out -- that's who -- choosing to hang out with. And I thought that was just yet say -- say -- nonsense -- so but it's not. You know it's a wonderful. Horrible cocktail of genetics. Happenstance. And you know who knows what else that makes people more likely to pick up drugs. But you know we've talked about on this radio show many times that -- some of the warning signs when when our children start to change their friends. They start to say divide the people that they use staying elsewhere and they start to have friends that you may -- know anymore. And you know you may not have ever been introduced to these people. Should we go to the phones let's go to the phones -- who's who's on the phone Suzanne Suzanne Suzanne you're live on the air without -- woody and. I am happy -- I have a son who was around nineteen years old. And they are -- hiding it and I say thank him every now and and smoking pot was his friend is not that I've actually seen him but you end. Mallet and child and I have confronted him. And you know every now and then -- they act that out and helping Al I don't do this anymore. Suzanne how old is your son please in 1990. And so are you concerned that it's more are you concerned that you spamming and and you Steve told them you can't tolerate this -- -- And. Well you know it's difficult and as we really have a plan in place. And -- that's one of those things so when you confront him do you have. -- Out plan might if peace if it if he is smoking pot then he can't come out with those friends or if he is smoking. You know do you keep -- does he have to do actually Childers or if he is smoking -- -- counseling. That's one of those crucial thing so when you confront someone. You can. When you confront someone you should have a plan there are some things that parents have are able to control and we call from the seventh season and I -- its members six. They can control. You know his cellphone. Any access he has to cash. Any access he has to. Credit card and access computers cell phones. Whether or not you're gonna pay for classes. All of those things are those things if if being sober is important -- If you meetings over is important to you those are things you can manipulate but the major thing I think you could. Uses get some help with that. You know talk to someone who understands it the school counselor some. Pet do you think that your son is open to receiving a little help. Actually did ask webcam and he's -- now I'm not addicted hand. And I kept things under control and I just don't wanna get to activate -- and that got a bit -- not mind. There might be an issue. And I think that obvious point about the seven -- you do have these seven seas there are consequences that you can. That you can I'm showing your son and you can get his attention. You know by limiting his curfew limiting itself on his credit cards as his computer. But at the same time you know maybe it's time to say -- like you to sit down with an addiction counselor and agreed to three sessions. You know just a short term -- disgust with somebody who's not. Just you know -- whether or not it he is in travel and mother you know what Alli we know that he was entitled. And what you should do that he has seen and I agree with the happy that it's short term right because you're just saying I want you to meet with this person for three visits -- short term. Okay you're telling me that you don't have. A drug problem well then we're not gonna throw you went to a residential program right now for six months but it would we do -- something on short terms of the you learn a little more. Senate and if you have any questions call professional at them for help. Thank you for you -- Any professional and mine. Actually if you actually there there are a lot of them around and it depends where you live but you know some -- Calls. There's there is so short therapy referral service they often have people who are doing it. Aren't -- -- capitalists. Are there in -- where we'll but I knew it and all animal. I would call Lowell house and ask them because they're a good program and if they're not a good fit for use they would know -- went around. And if you just have trouble and run into apologizing give us a call we're in the office nine to five every day. I don't think you so much for listening and you know we really appreciate. That your trying to do the right thing. For yourself. So -- you know what I think and should be our program in the school. Yeah well. Good points thank you so much really -- point three more programs everywhere should be treatment on demand. It. I agree. So when things that I've seen both of you kind of talk about and thank -- and it is. That kind of you know that dance that ended up happening so you find it's a disaster you feeling awful. Way to implement. You know 22 went to Edmonton. Well we. We told should take a drug test. She refused then she admitted that she had taken some perks a couple of days before. We told she had an option she had to go to detox but she couldn't live there anymore home was not an option. And so she went to detox we. Gave her car to the veterans association. To to some vets. And we got rid of a cell phone and we essentially said you know we're here to support you we're here to love you. But we're not here to be -- and you need to do the hard work to get better now. And Melissa what did you do when you found that she's really using Ireland but. Well at that point she had all pretty -- with the drug counselor and they work working on getting her into a program. And she says and she was in a program and she -- yes. She was able to sneak drugs into the facility. Uh huh. And they did not -- our -- the drug -- reverse an overdose rate. There uses and we're gonna actually do a show on mats and there's medication that we recommend that anybody use. Has has kids who are using he would change in -- and just a little. Injection of ten of a -- up people's noses that puts them into instant withdrawal. Yeah -- and an interesting thing because learned to cope does narc and training yes. And as well as they provide parents with. Drug tests is yeah well -- they do. Have you taken the drug of the you know our current and actually certified to -- knock is that right right -- so you're one of the train we asked -- We -- but it worked. That's terrific give us -- call 6172666868. You're listening to race turned radio. And so you know and if this is terrific information for parents guns you know people people need to hear business. And in a note jackets out -- a little tough for you to say you know we love you too much but you can't stay here. And her reaction you know we sent her to a to a house in New Hampshire for a month to get better. And she was reluctant and she kept salute to mediating in not wanting to participate. And I said you know. It's up to you -- recovery. You're listening to right turned radio we're gonna take a quick break we'll be right back with our guests. Right welcome back to right turn radio really you're listening to what the NF beyond WRKO. 68 year. But that I was that -- was OK good that's definitely -- -- Hasn't received. You know I grew up with wolfman Jack -- yes they all did. All of us there are aides. Well Melissa you I would like in this kind of statement we can attend focus and treatment and you have a great quote from you -- your book. A that Amy wrote about how to beat it. She said in order to beat this disease I need to do one crucial thing of Smart myself. And she was somebody who never really had to work herded anything I think she believed that she would be able to beat this with her intellect and she did not realize that. And what doesn't beat this -- it doesn't have a chance now. Now. Tough stuff. I wanted to ask you when. She was writing this journal while she was in treatment yes and that they they gave you this journal. We founded among her you pull -- ensemble long. It seems like a wonderful gift. I mean it kind of you know all the basic things they say an apparent switches. Can you didn't 'cause he can't control you can't cure it. You know it was a whole book of her saying mom and dad he did great. I just I just lost to him. And so this is your opportunities take her book her her diary room -- -- -- yes and and in the in -- gift TU. Very much I had no idea that she was in so much torment. When she was in treatment and I think some of her counselors didn't either they were very optimistic about how she was doing. And we never thought she was gonna die but now well and it's just. An amazing piece that you get to carry that message and continue to carry that message you know. Terrific. Jack a I wanna ask you -- wanna talk about solution a little bit so what is working give us some hope here for here. You're -- what's in it seems to be working here. For my daughter she found the twelve step program to be in the program at Houston a day. It's also used for addiction issues she was immersed in that. And that helped her she couldn't do it over a long period of time she needed to do it intensively. She didn't intensively and she lives that. Every day and so that's part of her recovery so. -- funded you know she's really reacted well to that and it has worked for her. And as long as she's living it she's able to do recovery and it doesn't allow for excuses -- you don't get to say -- get say -- I'm not gonna go and any meetings right if -- not going to mediation not working on your recovery. And I don't mean to put you on the spot but this twelve step recovery working in your lives that. I started attending a -- on meeting a few weeks before Amy died. And now it's up to three years and she died and I still go almost every week. Now some people might not know what what meeting that is an arm around me you know it's -- on is to narcotics anonymous has -- honest to alcoholics anonymous it's basically a twelve -- support group for the loved ones of people with the narcotics. Or other drug -- certain. And -- learn to -- actually has a twelve step program that parents can go to. Which is there a way of connecting to the recovery of their children. So too few have learned some really painful lessons. And what it plated bullet singly important things for parents tonight. Well it's -- think it's important to realize that we are living in a very toxic culture rotation people and that today's epidemic. Is just devastating the generation and devastating families devastating communities and I believe the nation's economy national security. And I I think it can have I -- now it can happen anywhere when he was getting sick -- -- couldn't happen here in my suburb in the school. But it can happen anywhere. And the other thing to realize is that just like every when he struggling is an individual. They have to find the train African that's the right fit that -- when -- every therapist that there are not every program there's the right fit and you just have to keep fighting for your kid to find treatment program works. Eason and Jack. I think I discovered that you know it's easy give pills to people who have. Anxiety and -- an addict using society as a way of getting medication. I also learned that you don't you can't control the disease which petroleum reaction to it and so going to a group like learn to cope is really helpful apparent. And my advice I guess is from a -- perspective. You know go with your partner. Right because I see so many moms at the senate seems to fall on the moms to be. Accountable responsible for that buying cars that dads to go because he got a partner unless it's too hard to go through it by yourself. What you said that about 90% of the people who attend and learn to cope or possibly women -- when -- this yes. And so you're saying to reaching out to people listeners hearings thing. -- the fathers get involved as well yeah absolutely because if you're not doing it together. One of you may be sending a different message and oftentimes you you hear stories of one parent sort of holding the line in the other enable. Right so you sending mixed messages in the -- is gonna use that to divide you -- -- to continue to do the media trucks. It's hard enough to be apparent right. You know knowledge in and we know one thing I really want people to take away from this is that it's everywhere. You know it's like you're not communion knowing. You know it's easy to say well this person that they did heroin because of that but it's just everywhere they -- heroin because they found heroin. And and and it was there and it's there. And Abby and I'm Melissa used the word epidemic. You know and that this is something that that senator Coleman was talking about the other night. Why am I mean the major problems with this is it's very you know New England hasn't run a huge problem with it. But it's also I wonder what's gonna happen because it's affecting this age group from -- sixteen. To 25. Is where it is the biggest group. And they can be carrying this epidemic with them as they get older and that just really worries me. And it's just huge out there. So he we wanna learn a little bit more about how to. -- Melissa's book -- Melissa how can we get it stuck Ireland's that the our heroines pocket dot com it is available and hard copy audiobook and e-book the thank you. And then can people find you on that website as well they can McCain and Jack Telus -- -- against Oakland took. While it's learn the number to cope dot com. Right or dot org and you can look it up and they wonderful web sites the website is fabulous -- -- -- get consistent advice -- go on and any time lots of people around it. It's a great resource for parents. And when you say resource that meaning that they can find meetings. They can find meetings they can get advice for issues that pop up. They can get other parents who've come on and say this is what I did so they don't feel so alone and the advice I found is very consistent. And and they can also learn about training and yes they can't they can learn about training they can learn about meetings issue said there's lots of resources available. And learn to -- has 4000 registered members on the web site. And chapters in Massachusetts the newest just starting to Cambridge on Mondays and to its -- and Tuesday's. People can go to web site and click on meetings and -- That's gonna. We'd like to thank you thank you for sharing and thank you for sharing your daughters with us and I feel like we got to know from Ritalin I'm -- in Africa to meet -- -- It yet thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule. It's you know. We'd like to have you come back at some point please. So we should also talk that some of the things that we do it rate turned -- To kind of put some pleasure enjoy into people's recovery which is one of the ways we believe that that people can find. Happiness and recovery lake can I saw your last night I went to the comedy show drew -- -- funny people in recovery. Oh my word it was funny. And so coming up this weekend is Richard Brown -- -- and show us around a blues singer and blues singer and that's. And that's you couldn't go to right just Google right turn you can find her address. We have. We have music and comedy of -- or comedy every Saturday night. I'm very important piece also we wanna we wanna. We wanna promote the more comics for recovery show coming up in -- So any other thing we really want a mine is be safe and ask for help completion answer how absolutely absolutely so. We'll talk to you all next week we have a great show coming up next week what does it -- Harm reduction next week be safe.